Well, the "women self-imagine" issue was interesting, with a pretty much unanimous vote from the men that it drives them crazy, and an also unanimous opinion from the women that it is pesent for pretty much everyone.
So lets talk about men now.
Charlotte and I had a very good visit, and I always feel very blessed by my time with her. She and her husband are still struggling, which wasn't a surprise given what I know. I did tell her that RS and I were having problems last year and went to see a therapist. We talked about the stigma of marriage counseling, which is something that is holding them back a bit from doing that, but I told her that every couple has problems and sometimes they can't see them without an outside set of eyes. I told her that our therapist helped us tremendously, and we are in a much better place now.
When RS and I left her, we were talking about her time with us, and in particular, one of a few fights she had with her husband on the phone in front of us. RS said, "Charlotte really emasculates her husband." I asked him how and he gave a couple examples of where her picking at him probably wears down his sense of masculinity.
Now, I don't think Charlotte knows she is doing it, but when RS told me his perspective, it made sense. So my question to you male readers is, how do you define masculinity? Are there ways that we women can make you feel less masculine? I recently read the book Wild at Heart. It discusses what Christian masculinity ideally should look like. I found it very interesting, and the principles the author suggests are sort of a running theme through Finding Heart's blog.
I and I'm sure my other female readers would benefit from hearing your perspectives on this. I mean, if you fellows don't mind talking about it. Perhaps you don't find it very masculine to discuss masculinity! So gentlemen, please, if it doesn't frustrate your manly sensitivities, can't we talk about it? :)
I really can't speak with any sort of authority about what it means to be "manly" or "masculine" myself, so instead of pretending to know what I'm talking about, I thought I'd just share a few related quotes.
How would telling people to be nice to one another get a man crucified? What government would execute Mister Rogers or Captain Kangaroo? ~Philip Yancey
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly.....who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devitions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the wrost, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who have never known neither victory nor defeat. ~Teddy Roosevelt
On a related note, our news team reported last week that that a new study showed that women prefer to have flings with "macho" men, but tend to marry a gentler sort. Thoughts on that, ladies? My thinking is that a man can be both gentle and manly, but then the report didn't really define its terms very well.
32 comments:
I'm not really sure how to answer your question, but I do think the modern age has stripped away much of our masculinity. Some points:
1) Many guys of our generation were raised by women. The prevalence of divorce and/or fathers that worked long hours. You have a lot of guys that never had a father figure.
2) Technology and careers have killed the "hunter/provider" nature of men. I sit at a desk most of my day on a computer. Where's the blood, the sweat, the outdoors?
3) Many women (and this has been discussed often) present a conflicting ideal of what they want in a man. Like you said, they want flings with jerks and they want to marry a nice guy. They want tough but they want feelings. Too much feelings, and it's wishy-washy. They want to be feminist, but they still want male leadership.
4) Husbands are characterized as buffoons, for the most part. See the average TV sitcom.
I could go on, but I'll give the floor to someone else...
The perfect, self confident, manly man probably wouldn't be affected by a woman belittling him. He would laugh it off as just a quaint characteristic of the weaker sex.
A real (meaning actual, human) man, especially one who believes in equality between the sexes, will take it differently. When the person we love and respect as a co-equal in our relationship speaks we pay attention. We give value to what they say and what they imply.
You can fill in the blanks.
All is not lost though. Eventually we harden and stop caring as much. We stop being concerned about what she says or does. We build walls and kill feelings.
Then it's all better. We've grown up and become 'real men'. We can take it now because we don't care.
In past generations this training was provided to boys early, so by puberty they had already hardened and walled off their feelings. Now it usually takes a few decades longer.
ML
Therese, I'm going to mull over this a couple days as I have many thoughts but not sure if they'll all fit in a comment. Maybe if you'd set a word limit? :)
P.S.- What were some of the things she said over the phone that caught RS' attention?
When I think of 'emasculating' behavior, I think of stuff that takes away a man's sense of his manhood. Belittling his ability as a provider, for one example. Henpecking, for another ("so, when are you gonna fix that busted toilet that I've been after you to fix for three weeks?" etc, etc)
I've heard some wives talk fairly crassly about what they'll 'let' their husbands do (ie, 'he wants to play poker this weekend, but I haven't decided yet if I'll let him'), and it always makes me cringe for the way that it diminishes their husband's sense of his own autonomy. (Of course, if he's smart, he'll check stuff with her, anyway, but it makes a big difference if he's being considerate of her, or she's playing 'gatekeeper' for his life)
Molly is pretty good at 'letting me be the man' - she's pretty skilled at initiating things in a way that makes it seem (sometimes even to me) like it came from me. She'll say, "He's the head, but I'm the neck; and the neck's job is to get the head to look in the right direction."
Looking at this comment, I'm not so happy with how well I've been able to say what I mean, but the germ of the idea is there. . .
To echo FTN's comments, today's culture is anti-masculinity. If one were to watch TV, one might think that men are lost, little children who must have a woman to help them through life. I think the pendulum has swung too far from giving women more rights into bashing men. A masculine man is a jerk, because he doesn't desire to ride the emotional roller-coaster.
To echo Desmond Jones' comments, women today try to be the gatekeepers of their husbands lives. "I'll let him (fill in the blank) this weekend, I guess." is a running theme. It is considerate to talk with his wife first, but it might become easier to "beg for forgiveness than ask for permission."
In my opinion, a man is one that isn't afraid of making decisions. It can be anything from firing a worker to deciding where to go to dinner. I've noticed that many women are paralyzed by the decision making process. There are too many variables. The opportunity slips away. A man is not about being right; a man is about being decisive. A football coach once told me, "if you're going to make a mistake, make it a full speed."
Also, we don't care what color the drapes are. Please don't drag us to the store to look at 5,000 kinds of drapes.
I have several thoughts to share, some will have to go in a post of my own on the topic. But here goes:
The advancement of women has changed the landscape for manly men, I think. Face it, the chicks work hard, earn their own money, have their own careers, and some times we have to put dinner in and run the vacuum, etc. That said, that supper should be beef on the grill, or fish you've caught yourself, and one should drink a beer whilst doing so, rather than sip a Chardonnay while making a springy chicken salad in a half melon bowl...come to think of it, I've drank while doing a number of household chores...does that make me a rebel?
I have always asked MLBP about plans which directly concern her...but I've always told her about plans which concern me. Case in point: I will tell her I'm going hunting for a week, and I tell her well in advance. I don't ask. But then I do ask her if I should also ask her mother to come and visit during that time to help her out, etc. See the difference?
Finally I would not say that each of us has to be a RBAM in a 4WD pickup truck leaving before dawn to go forth and slay our own supper in order to be a "guy." Those opportunities do abound however. They're all over the place. One can learn to fish, play golf or softball or 3 on 3 or something, in order to be competitively active.
I think the average henpecked guy might be surprised at the reaction if he showed up sweaty, dirty, and bruised with a good story or two...let's face it, if your story revolves around say video gaming, no one's very interested in it...not even your wife.
I wish my husband would answer this. I'd love to hear what he has to say... I don't feel an authority to answer, what with the wrong reproductive organs and all. :D
I've been meaning to say something here, but I've been mulling it over in my head.
What everyone else has said about the emasculating effects of our current society is true. But it has even deeper causes and effects than is generally seen.
I found a blog one time -- don't remember where -- from a woman who used to always deny her husband sex and then their relationship healed, and she was writing about this sort of thing. To her, a big part of it was just how un-manly her husband used to act. It seemed to her that he wanted her to be less his wife than his mother -- because he was always asking her permission, deferring to her, etc.
To our society, the assetive manly take-charge sort of thing has been demonized so much that often men feel they HAVE to let their wives take charge. And this means the women feel they are left with just one more child.
This one woman -- through lots of deep thoughts -- came to an interesting conclusion. She thought the general demise of the Judeo-Christian belief across most society means a lack of real mascualine role-models for men. And that this, in addition to the demonization of masculine behavior, has contributed to these results. That men don't feel they can really be men, and don't know what that looks like anyway.
FTN's comment about the absense of fathers goes right along with this, but this woman also pointed to the need for male-archetypes in a more perfect form -- literary and cultural sorts of things -- in helping men to find a real masculine identity.
And on that note, I went and saw The 300 last night and, beyond being a very fun flick, presents a very, very old-school masculine sort of archetype and lauds it with very high praise. A lot of that is typical Frank Miller stuff, but I really liked the way it played.
And of course a lot of critics lambasted the movie for exactly that reason. I've even heard it called "fascist" for presenting this male, aggressive, good-vs-evil, freedom-vs-tyranny sort of morality play. But the viewers seem to like it.
So maybe in small ways our society might be waking up a bit.
First of all, thanks for the mention. I can't say I agree with everything in the book Wild at Heart, but it did rouse within me the recognition of how I personally became less 'manly' in order to 'make peace' during the end of a troubled marriage. To that end, I had to separate from my mindset at the time and regain the masculinity I felt I lost.
How did I lose it? As X began to have more problems with her identity, she withheld sex, but gave no reason. Being that she was only the 2nd woman I slept with, I had no vast experience to fall back on. With no other memories of, "Oh FH, you are so GREAT in bed!", I had to assume that her problems were because of me. Knowing what I know now, I feel stronger in that, but I'll have to, um, get my hands dirty again to really prove it to my brain. ;)
To me, masculinity is often seen as how other men see a man. A guy in a grocery store cut in front of me in line and (politely) told him that he did, he puffed up like a Thanksgiving turkey and out-machimsmoed me. Man how I hated that feeling and how it made me feel 'little' because I didn't take him out to the parking lot eventhough I knew I would probably get pounded. Was that machismo or masculinity? Definitely machismo, but I think it's a common mistake.
FH now tries to live 'masculinity' as being a self-sure man, walking tall in my boots and sticking to his beliefs, opening doors for people, taking up the cause of the disenfranchised, and being willing to paint my face blue and going Braveheart on anyone who threatens my kids, my family, or my belief structure.
Oh, and it involves burping and farting as well.
Everyone has made good points about this post - about how society emasculates men, TV shows show a weak or incompentent man, etc.
I was talking to a co-worker just last week and he was practically begging me to invite him out for a guys night with me because his wife never "lets him out."
For me it has never been a matter of Therese letting me out. When I want to do something I tell her "I would like to do this" and I do it. When we were in our IMMEDIATE affair recovery mode I didn't go out as much, but I had to make sure my priorities were in order. Now, as we get back to normal, I have two paintball matches coming up and just had a LAN party.
If women do not allow their men to have "guy time" or if men don't make the time they are going to lose an important part of who they are. Even if it is just hanging out late at night at a Starbucks, men need to be with just men sometimes.
When our families get together, it is not unusual for the men to end up together and for the women to end up together. It is natural, and there is nothing wrong with it.
America has become a very service oriented country and, as someone said, we spend a lot of time in front of our computers. After all, that is what we are all doing on this blog isn't it? We don't just want to be outside, we need to be outside.
FTN - I think as women we show a desire for a conflicting ideal because we are still have one for ourselves. Society tells us that we're suppose to rebel and cringe at words like "submit" and "authority" when used on our husbands, and yet many women DO want to feel protected and cared for, even if its only nominally, since as LBP said below, women are out there making their own livings too. So until we sort out the conflict in ourselves, I'm afraid you're going to have to live with the conflict in what we want from you!
I HATE how men are portrayed in sitcoms. Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, According to Jim, etc. all show men as manipulative children who are incapable of handling any sort of tough decisions on their own, and their "masculinity" takes the form of leering at other women when their wives aren't looking and drinking beer while watching sports. There's more to being a man than that.
Morality Loophole - Welcome! Does it really "kill" the feelings, or only suppress them? Do you ever really "not care"?
XI - No word limit.:)
Let's see.... angry that he went out with his friends to dinner while she was out of town. Angry that he spent money in such a frivolous way as in a restaurant....
Desmond - Ah..the "I'll let you" clause. I don't like that myself. I think if both the husband and wife agree on what a reasonable amount of time for each of them to be away doing guy/girl stuff, that shouldn't be an issue. We each have our things that we do, and so the question is, "Are you available to stay with MA while I do ___?"
As far as the provider thing, that must be especially difficult for the man when the wife works as well. And that was a part of Charlotte's fight. She didn't think they made enough money for him to be able to eat out. I have no idea their financial situation, but RS felt that her getting all over him about the money was very emasculating.
Aphron - I think being able to make a decision is good, too. When asked to choose where to go to dinner, what movie to see, etc. I HATE being put on the spot and my wishy-washyness drives RS crazy.
I'm trying to remember the last commercial I saw where the wife, kids, and in some cases dog, were not smarter than the Dad...there's gotta be one somewhere.
LBP - What's wrong with a springy chicken salad in a half melon bowl! :)
I think physical activity is good for a man, too. Sports (participating more than watching) seem to be a good opportunity for men to connect with the outdoors when their office/cubicle careers doesn't allow it.
And you're absolutely right about the bruised, dirty, and sweaty thing. When RS gets back from playing paintball all day, I loooooove how rugged and tough he looks. And the bruises? Mmmm......Don't ask me why, though.
How do you define manliness, masculinity? What characteristics come to mind? It's quite obvious from the responses that there are differing ideas on exactly what it means, which honestly is a good thing because itpoints out the underlying paradox: There are a certain set of behaviors that identify one a truly masculine but those behaviors need to be tempered by the circumstances and environment. Clearly stated, the real key to masculinity is discernment. Understanding when a 'masculine' response is necessary and when not is a key to being a manly-man.
Let's start with a definition of 'masculine':
1 a : MALE
b : having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man
2 : of, relating to, or constituting the gender that ordinarily includes most words or grammatical forms referring to male
Not much help, is it? What is the measure of a man? Um, he's male.
In light of that huge failure by our buddy Webster, let's take back up and take a peek at the original situation: "Charlotte really emasculates her husband.". While we are not given any details on just how, here is the primary definition of emasculation:
1. "to deprive of strength, vigor, or spirit"
Read that again. Go ahead, I'm serious, read it a second time. Come on, quit the arguing and go back up there and read it again. This is not just a literary device, I really mean it!
Now let's break that down into pieces:
A) To deprive of strength- Each of us has inherent strengths and weaknesses. We play to our strengths and try to hide our weaknesses. An emasculator (cool word, huh?) focuses on exposing weaknesses.
B) vigor- Primary definition: "1 : active bodily or mental strength or force". Mind if I just ignore the bodily-strength side here? That can be affected by a woman over time, but I think our discussion is focusing on the mental side. So an emasculator will deprive a man of mental strength or force. Simple enough.
C)spirit- While listed last, I believe this is the crux of the matter. An emasculator feels bigger/better/stronger if they can break the spirit of their victim.
Now we have (and unfortunately the emasculator has) something to go on. Systematic erasure or perhaps suppression of strength, vigor, and spirit of a man. Put in those terms, this really is kinda scary. You wouldn't do this to your kids (or I'll personally report you) but so many are willing to do it to a man in their life.
I'll pause here and let you think about this some. I will, however, make one final point: As is indicated either directly or indirectly in some of the responses here, there is an unfortunate tendency to equate masculinity with macho or machismo. Some defintions:
macho: : characterized by machismo : aggressively virile
machismo: 1 : a strong sense of masculine pride : an exaggerated masculinity
2 : an exaggerated or exhilarating sense of power or strength
OK, I won't tell you to read those again. But do it anyway. Read through the definitions of the words and take some time and think about the things our culture says about men. Scary how much overlap and confusion we've added to the mix, huh?
Therese, would you rather I clog my own space or just take over here and clog up your space? :) Ladies choice, as any true gentleman would offer ...
Tajalude - yeah, I understand. I suppose my next post could be what things women find manly.
XH - Thanks for taking the time away from your big project to respond!
I can see your point about the demise of a Judeo/Christian culture leading to some of this confusion. People who know very little about the Bible tend to simply know that it encourages the domination and oppression of women (It using the "S" word and all, Eph. 5:22) and that its ideas about male/female roles are archaic.
Although many things like chivalry are given a bit of a bad name in our culture, at the heart of those principles was the desire to be masculine. To be the most “authentic” man possible. Its probably fitting to note here that the word virtue as well as virile come from the Latin word for man (virs), implying that virtue is inherently tied up in authentic masculinity.
Oh, and I'm totally jealous that you've seen The 300 because I really have been wanting to and just haven't had the chance. The Battle of Thermopylae is one of my favorite stories from ancient history. It probably just won't be the same on our tv at home. (sigh)
Finding Heart - What you said about how men contribute to each other’s feelings about their own sense of masculinity is much like what we were talking about for women. We are hardest on our own sex, it seems.
And speaking of sex, its amazing how much that piece of it can influence our strong sense of (insert gender). That shouldn’t be a surprise, of course, considering it’s the most, um, organic way that we express our gender. Absence or abuse of sex in a marriage can have overwhelming emotional consequences. During RS’s affair, we were hardly ever intimate. That absence made me feel unwomanly, unattractive, and undesirable.
Ideally, like Morality Loophole said, we shouldn’t be so affected by how we are treated by others. But God made us social creatures and we can’t help but be very personally affected for better or worse, by the actions of those nearest to us.
Dear Husband - If you were always just going off and doing your own thing never thinking about how it inconvenienced me or the family, then that would be a different story. But your consideration and your acknowledgement that I need “girl time” too make me happy for you when you can go kick back or whatever with the guys.
Kick back or whatever? You know when I get together with the guys we just hang out in our boxers and have pillow fights! :)
Therese asked "Morality Loophole - Welcome! Does it really "kill" the feelings, or only suppress them? Do you ever really "not care"?"
I was sort of joking, sort of not. In my case as my love for her faded the blinders came off and I stopped caring.
ML
Therese: Go see 300 now. Right now. It's GOT to be on somewhere near where you live. You might even be able to still catch it in IMAX. Go now. Do not wait.
Although, note that if you are a big huge fan of the REAL history, you might have issues. The movie is based on a comic book written by Frank Miller which was in turn based on the 1960s movie 300 Spartans. The real history is still there in recongnizable form, but it is wrapped in a lot of fantasy stuff. The author's justification is that the whole movie is basically the story as told by the one survivor of the 300 as he was telling the story to help rally other troops. So, it is exagerrated and embelished and told very much from the Spartan point of view.
Anyway, after I left that last comment I discussed it a bit with Gloria. She said that she agreed that it presented a very masculine archtype for the Spartans -- doing what they knew needed to be done to protect their families and homes and ideals even though it meant their own lives -- but that she also enjoyed the presentation of Gorgo, Leonidas's wife. She was strong, confident, intelligent, and sacrifices as much as her husband for the cause.
But that got me thinking further (surprise, surprise). They make sure and include her telling her husband as he leaves the traditional Spartan wifely admonition: "come back with your shield, or on it."
Now, think about that for a minute here. This is the wives telling their husbands to live up to the Spartan masculine ideal. To live up the the standards of honor and bravery. To be a man.
While in our society women have tendency -- unconscious sometimes -- to demasculate their men, here is a society where the women were consciously taking a role of encouraging masculinity in their men. Spartan women saw it as part of their jobs to encourage and protect these ideals in their men. Composing songs of bravery lauding those who lived up to the ideals, and visciously deriding the cowardly. That admonition shown in the film -- to return victorious or dead, but not from flight -- says something. It says, "I will only want you when you are a man. If you are not a real man I will reject you."
OK, there's a lot about Spartan society we can disagree with (although, I still think we can learn more from them that is good than, say, the Athenians) but this role the women took upon themselves to encourage and support their husband's masculinity is something special. Our society tends to do the opposite.
We, as men, NEED support. God knew that, which is why He created women as a helpmeet. We need support and encouragement in all things, but nowhere more than in living up to these masculine ideals. Which makes for an interesting set of dynamics.
A 'real' man has discernment.
-He knows when to be manly/masculine: protecting the family, doing what's right, correcting a wrong, standing up for the weak
- He knows when not to exert his masculinity in everyday (trivial) situations: Choosing paint, restaurants, drapes, etc.
- He knows when to be nurturing.
- He knows when to be tough.
- He knows that the moments of necessary masculinity are rare but crucial.
- He recognizes that the world has no idea what real masculinity is.
- He recognizes that macho/machismo is cool and effective. And typically detrimental.
- He knows that the masculine 'image' this world presents is a mess.
- He recognizes that only the strongest admit when they are wrong and only the weakest stand their ground when wrong.
- He recognizes that he needs to learn from other men both what it takes to be masculine and what is NOT masculine.
- He passes on the right things he's learned and cautions about the wrong.
- He recognizes a no-win situation and minimizes collateral damage rather than fight a lost cause.
P.S.- Before you see 300 find the History Channel version. And if any of you fellas want to rediscover you inner hunter/gatherer, stop by and I'll set you up.
Excellent point, XH, about the role of women in encouraging masculinity in their men. And not just their husbands, but their sons. That sort of feminine grasp of what masculinity means for the society-at-large has been almost completely lost.
Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I'm trying hard to get my wife to be more involved with my son's cubscout activities. Scouting -- when done right -- can be a very masculine sort of thing according to the standards we are talking about. I'm very glad I get to do this with my son and spend the time, but to have the feminine encouragement of these ideals I think just makes everything so much stronger.
And this is something we have lost in our society so deeply. Instead we have absent fathers who have never understood that being man isn't just about being strong, but is about strength under control, and about using it to do what is one's duty. So, no fathers, just boys being raised by their mothers. Mothers who in many cases have been so burned by the men in their life that they have a very low view of males in general. That sort of anti-male attitude HAS to rub off. Especially on young boys who are trying to understand what it means to be male.
Kids usually respond to that in one of two ways: either to buy into the "men are evil" sort of thing on an unconscious level and so reject their own masculinity -- becoming feminized men, meterosexuals, or more. Or, to accept the standard and then live up to it, fulfilling the expectation they have that, as a man, they will always be a dog.
How else do we expect boys to respond when, as a society, all our messages are that being male is to be dumb and mean and out of control and a womanizer and irresponsible, etc?
And so very much of this absolutely rests on how the women in our lives view men and masculinity in general.
This point, XH, is part of what disgusts me with the affair. I did not act in a manly way by treated my wife so poorly.
Well, you certainly weren't in control of yourself. And, if we define "manliness" as I do it is strength under control and directed towards what we rationally know is our duty, not what is our emotionally-driven desires.
But at the same time, hanging onto guilt and not moving on when you've been forgiven is ALSO being driven by your emotions. I know that I'm preaching to the choir as you and Therese seem to be moving on quite well, but you have to make sure that the reaction you have to your guilt isn't continuing to keep you from doing your duty to her. And to your son. Too many times people become consumed by guilt to the point that they continue to make mistakes.
And that's just as unmanly as the thing that started it all.
Guilt has a purpose: to bring us to a change in behavior. After that, it has no further use, and can, instead, become very destructive. When it brings us back to our duty, it is beneficial. When it distracts us from our duty it is not.
XI - Thank you for your very thoughtful comment. Honestly, it really should have been a post instead of a comment, but only because it was written so very well. What you said about "breaking the spirit" is interesting and I've never thought of it quite that way. It fits into what Finding Heart said in how men can make each other feel small.
I know I'm nit-picking here, but can one have an exaggerated sense of masculinity?
RS - Hey, whatever you do is between you and the guys. When I'm with Charlotte we shop for underwear, so....
Morality Loophole - Have you found that losing "that loving feeling" affected your sense of masculinity as much as the "tearing down" process did?
XH - It's not in our theaters anymore. :( It was one of my favorite stories from Heroditus's Histories. I've actually seen the older version. I thought it was good, but again, a movie and not historical account.
What you said about wives supporting their husband's masculinity is absolutely right, and is Biblical, too. I wrote a teeny bit about it quite a while ago here.
What you said about Leonidas's wife reminded me of something my mother-in-law said a long time ago. She said that she'd rather her sons die in battle than dodge the draft. Kind of shocking to hear it just said like that, but its pretty much the same idea.
It isn't easy to support our husbands, particularly when we have trouble figuring out what the feminine ideal is for ourselves, but it is something that I know is important.
XI - manly/masculine: protecting the family, doing what's right, correcting a wrong, standing up for the weak
That last part was something the book Wild at Heart pointed out about Jesus. Jesus was gentle, kind and compassionate to the weak, sick, and poor. But when it came to dealing with people like the pharisees, He didn't back down.
He was very strong when He needed to be. I think our society has toned down Christ's "manly" side a bit and made His message simply a "be nice to everyone" mantra. His love often went beyond just being nice, though.
That was a very good list, XI.
XH & RS - when I was talking to a shrink friend of mine, she said that sneakiness and lies are attacks on the male virtues. That when men live like that, it is like a disease on their sense of masculinity. RS, I know you can relate to that feeling.
One of the most painful and at the same time proud moments (I don't think that's quite the right word...I think awe was more like it) in my life was the day after revelation when RS told his parents about the affair. He just came out and said it, didn't dress it up, didn't play it down, didn't make excuses. In that moment, he started to get his strength back. In that moment I was still angry and deeply hurt, but that act on his part started me on the path towards respecting him again. A path I haven't had to re-trace my steps on since.
And I think that's a part of the whole dynamic between wives and husbands that needs to be present: respect. Women need to know their husbands are strong as much as men need to know their wives believe they are strong.
A part of me is dying to make some joke about RS "doing his duty by me" very well, but I'll let that one pass. :)
XI - is choosing paint really such a trivial thing? I mean, you have to live with the walls for a long time! ;)
Women need to know their husbands are strong as much as men need to know their wives believe they are strong.
Mind if I quote this, Therese? That's got to be one of the more insightful pieces of relationship Truth I've ever read.
Oh, and check your email!
"Honestly, it really should have been a post instead of a comment"- I was afraid of that which is why I made it Ladies-choice. Oh, and this was the abbreviated version.
On "breaking the spirit": We all too often apply this idea to our children and forget that we can break each others spirit. Husbands and wives have to be particularly careful of this with each other but the truth is that anyone in a head-ship position must be aware that their actions and reactions can break someones spirit.
"I know I'm nit-picking here, but can one have an exaggerated sense of masculinity?"- Absolutely, Webster says so! I think that what we recognized a few years ago as masculinity in our culture was a mild version of just that. Men weren't supposed to feel, were supposd to rule-the-roost, were not to back down, etc. As a society we're in recovery but still have not found the balance that 'true' masculinity calls for.
"He was very strong when He needed to be. I think our society has toned down Christ's 'manly' side a bit and made His message simply a 'be nice to everyone' mantra."- I couldn't agree more. In fact, I have a hankering to go flip some tables in the temple! Who's with me?
"is choosing paint really such a trivial thing? I mean, you have to live with the walls for a long time! ;)"- What are you talking about? Why it was only 17 years ago that I painted the bedroom for Queenie adn she's already looking at new colors .....
Sorry, at the rate I'm clogging you BLOG it might be more efficient if you just gave me your ID and PW and I'll take over!
XH - I don't beat myself up anymore, but I think there is strength in being able to look back at that time and the lessons learned. We learned a lot during this time.
Love - what you wrote is very moving, very touching. As XH said, I think those are words to quote. Thank you.
Now can I say something about how I did my duty last night? :)
XH - Well, thanks! I sorta hoped that if I typed long enough on this blog that I might say something useful! You can quote me, but only after making arrangements with my legal staff, okay? ;) (yes, of course, ALL housewives have a legal staff)
RS - Well, Gee, I'm not sure exactly what you are wanting to say here! How do I know you're not just going to make me uncomfortable?
XI (waving hand and saying "I want to flip a table! I want to flip a table!")
I'll give you my ID and password, but only on the condition that you properly fill my role by posting pictures of yourself in heels. You might just have to shave you legs for it. Are you sure you want that responsibility? :)
Hey, I'll give it a go but I believe it's illegal in 14 states and Saudi Arabia. Sadly my favs, the red stilletos, are dead and gone. Any chance RS has something I can borrow, men's size 10? If so, I'll get going with the weedwhacker while I wait for 'em.
P.S.- Whatever happened to the pics from the gathering? You di promise to send copies....
XI - the red stilettos are dead and gone? Oh contraire, mon ami, I own two pairs! But they're much too small for you. ;)
If you're referring to the blogger gathering, I guess you'll have to hit FTN up for those!
I sometimes wonder if men seem kind of soft nowadays mainly because they are simply not tested in the way they used to be.
Most men in our culture used to leave school early, earn a living young, often worked in dirty, sweaty hard labour and were expected to be aggressive. Many of them had their strength, courage and endurance tested by war.
Nowadays, most of our men enjoy an extended adolescence living a pretty soft life at university and then go into office jobs. It's just not the same.
My own partner was raised mainly by his mother (his father was a war veteran who worked a long way away and only came home every second weekend), and I am the main earner in our house and a committed feminist. He spends more time at home with our son than I do. There is no automatic "submission" from me. He leads on things he genuinely knows more about or cares more about, and vice versa.
And yet, as long as I've known him, I've thought he was the most masculine man I've ever met. He has a lot of "blokey" interests, like sport, but mostly, he is just very self-assured, very confident. He radiates a kind of strength. He is never intimidated by anyone. He says he found his manhood as a soldier in Vietnam and I believe him - not because I think Vietnam or war are good, but because people really only discover their own strength and courage when they are really tested.
To be frank, I think a lot of men are emasculated, not so much by feminists as by manipulative women who just want to have their cake and eat it too. They pretend that they believe in male leadership because it sucks the men in initially and then makes their own lives easier. They want to be taken care of, take no financial or other kind of responsibility, tell a man he is the boss, but then act as if their every petty whim is sacred just because they are women. They use sex and other kinds of approval as a bargaining chip because they don't have the guts to be honest about what they really want and to take responsibilty for their own actions.
I agree with Christian Husband and others that women need to know their men are strong and that men need to know they feel that way. But women need to be strong, too, even if in a somewhat different way.
I think I am a strong woman and I know that I get a lot of pleasure from being equally matched by a strong man.
I just noted that I had been asked a question- Therese asked: "Morality Loophole - Have you found that losing "that loving feeling" affected your sense of masculinity as much as the "tearing down" process did?"
No.
My initial point was that if I love and value a person- what they say will affect me. When "that loving feeling" is gone, when respect and value for their opinions is diminished, I care less and less what is said.
For me I can't imagine being immune to excessive criticism from someone I love. Either the criticism will affect me or I'll stop loving. Or both.
ML
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